[00:01] Valerie: Rise. Renew. Reconnect. Welcome to from the Ashes, a podcast where every episode ignites hope and healing. I'm your host, Valerie Huang Beck, and I'm on a mission to help you embrace your unique potential and become the vibrant visionary you knew you were meant to be. Shim. The fire in the darkest night of Phoenix burns It's ready for flight Shadows may come try to tear you apart but you're the fake. All right, everyone. Welcome back to from the Ashes. I'm Valerie Beck, and today I have with me my guest, Tom Sun. And Tom sun is a storyteller, entrepreneur, and creative director whose journey has been defined by resilience, faith, and the relentless pursuit of purpose. And that is why I brought him on today. And actually, Tom was introduced to me by one of my friends and my client, Alvin. And when we were introduced, it was really just to get some insight on how to market. But then Tom just asked me if I would be willing to read a manuscript of his upcoming book, and I said yes. And to my surprise, not only was it a page turner, but I finished it in, like, two nights because, like, I couldn't stop reading. Just spoke to me in a way that was really resonant. Yeah. So I'm really excited to have you on the show today, Tom, to talk about that and everything else that's going on.
[01:21] Tom: Thank you for having me. First off, I want to say big shout out to Alvin. He's such a good guy. And thank you for taking the time to even read my manuscript. I, I had a chance to look into what you do on your, with, like, on your Instagram and everything, and you have so much you do for people as a service, and I appreciate you for that. That's, I think it's, I picked a really great person to look over my work.
[01:50] Valerie: Oh, thank you. Yeah. I, I, you know, when you gave me that book, I, I, I had a feeling like it would be something that I'd be really into and just the angle that you come from as well. And one of the things that I really appreciate about people that I resonate with is that you're real and you don't hide the messy bits and you're not afraid to show, like, the, just the reality of, of the struggle and, and the reality of life is that it's not always roses and ponies and whatever. So. But in spite of that, being able to really weave you, especially this ability to weave a story and then to see so much of the, the silver lining in everything. So with that, I'll ask Kind of like the first question is, like, what? Share with the audience, like, how did you arrive at the pursuit of Purpose?
[03:00] Tom: The pursuit of purpose. So I would say it has a lot to do with like, the title of your podcast, actually. Like the Fire. It feels like, you know, there were so many. There's so many moments. It's not. It's never just one moment that lead to. To something. It's. It's a series of things that culminated into, you know, what I describe as like a complete rock bottom, a burnout, right? And through the darkest places, the most beautiful things usually come out, you know, And I think that a lot of people could probably resonate from that, right? Like, whether it's death, whether it's betrayal, grief, right? Like, whatever it is. I think I, I saw this on a podcast one time. Rock bottom is not the what happens. It's. It's not the severity of the situation, it's the situation that makes you change, right? And I found that to be so profound. So when I did, that did happen. The first thing that I wanted was to find purpose. And the pursuit of purpose for me was very much guided by God. But I think for anybody, it takes a want to overcome your situation. And you have to get to a point where your mind is greater than. Than the situation for you to be able to make the purpose make sense. If that, if you're following me, that's generally what this book started off to be about.
[04:51] Valerie: Can you give people a sense of who you are in terms of, like, why? What do you feel have been the circumstances that have led you to your rock bottoms?
[05:05] Tom: Well, I like to think of myself as just the most regular guy. Like, I'm the guy that you walk past at a supermarket. You know, I'm the guy that you probably have driven past. And, you know, I'm. I'm not like, I wouldn't say I'm like a master or anything. I'm not a celebrity, right? Like, I'm not super rich or whatever. Like, I'm just the regular guy that you would walk by, right? But in my life, there's been so many challenges, and as a person, I had to one really, really grow up. Growing up to me means having to figure out my problems and not be my problem, right? So if you were to have asked me this 10 years ago, I would have told you that I am a person, that I'm just grinding, I'm just trying to make it. But for today, my answer is I'm a person that just wants to be of service. To others, I. I'm a person that I find. I find immense joy in being able to know that even if it's just through my stories, I've helped someone, and that's how I'm able to move with intention, and that's how I believe. My faith has. Has led me to this situation where I could even write a book and be on this podcast, you know, just to be able to tell a story, and hopefully it resonates with someone that's. That's who I want to be defined as. Yeah.
[06:53] Valerie: I think for a lot of us who've gone through the from the Ashes journey at least once, the likelihood is that we start off as what we would probably consider, like a normie. Right. Like, we're just. We're just going about our lives doing what our parents told us to do or what society told us we should do. You know, both you and I come from a Taiwanese background. Our parents are from Taiwan. And at least for me, growing up, that really meant, like, you go to school and you listen to your elders and you get good grades and you go to college and all this stuff. And I followed the script for a very long time until it didn't work for me anymore. Not everybody. Not everybody gets to a point where that happens. Some people can get by in their life and undisturbed. Right. But then there are. Then there are the people who, for some reason, the script doesn't work anymore. Did you ever come across that point for yourself?
[07:54] Tom: Absolutely. Similar to you. I mean, the script works for the person that I think is able to focus. Right. And I've never been the person to be able to just sit there and focus. Like, I've. I'm a very spontaneous. I'm. I'm. I like to use my imagination a lot. And for the most part, being, you know, studying to be a lawyer or being in the medical field does not allow you to. To exercise those. You know, what was it. What was like for you is something similar.
[08:32] Valerie: You know what I think it was because I've always been a dancer.
[08:37] Tom: Oh, there you go.
[08:39] Valerie: That really took over. It was kind of. It was almost like it pulled me out because, like, there was nothing more that I wanted to do at some point than dance. And. And, like, there was no room for that in my. In, like, the framework that I was, like, the script that I was given, you know, and it wasn't even, like, a script that that was externally enforced. It was actually, like, internal. My parents never told me, like, you can't do. You can't do this. You can't do that. But for some reason, like, the people around me. Right. And then, like, just the way that I was treated made me internally want to be, at some level, the obedient, good daughter. And. And that dictated my choices, even though. So there was the part of me that was like, being the rebel and the dancer and the artist, and then there was the part of me that was being the obedient. Follow the rules, follow the guidelines, get the. You know, do the thing. And eventually it just. One had to win over the other. Yeah. So.
[09:36] Tom: And, yeah. And the Asian. The Asian family environment, I mean, there's so many gossiping and talking and comparing. Like, I. I'm sure to some extent for both of us, like, that that's something that either will drive you or drive you away, you know? And for me, it drove me away really fast because I knew early on that I'm. I'm not. I'm not that guy, you know, And I didn't want to be, you know?
[10:08] Valerie: Yeah. Well, then also, like, looking at your family members, and I have distinctly remembered in specific periods in time, it's like, oh, that cousin's depressed. Oh, that cousin, like, is a real people pleaser. And she's like. She's making herself miserable. Right. And just like, I didn't have, like, too many conscious thoughts, but it's like, well, why is it like that? Like, you know, they're so accomplished, they're so educated, and, like, there's. Yet there's this part of them that's unhappy. So I think.
[10:39] Tom: I think it's. There's a lot to do with just. And this is not exclusive to Asian people. This is to everybody. We live in a society where we constantly feel like we're defined by our past and we're worried about our future. Right. And I. I feel like, like, through dance. Dance is art that requires you to be present. Right. And in the present time, you feel this, whether it's joy or accomplishment. Right. Like, that's what's important. You know, that's. That's what also creativity does, is like, whenever I'm present and I'm just designing this logo for my client, and I find out, wow. Like, this logo tells the story that my. My client's brand is supposed to tell that brings me more joy than actually collecting the check.
[11:38] Valerie: Absolutely. And, you know, I find the same thing, and this is something I'm actually working on right now is because I know that I have. I have certain superpowers when it comes to dance and movement. Arts and being able actually to teach that and helping people find that presence within the movement. And I'm not really utilizing that in my business. Right. So one thing that I'm trying to work out is like, how. How to bring this to people through what I do, through my work, because it is so powerful. And you're. You're right, because what really lights me up is being able to see people's transformation. That's. That's what drives me. Right. And you're right, the check doesn't matter so much. Sometimes that's to my detriment, but, like, it really does. There's some. There's nothing that feeds my soul more than helping facilitate what's already. The power that's already within.
[12:33] Tom: I love that. I love the way you put that because it's, you know, what we have within our abilities and what we have within ourselves is a culmination of every step we walk in life until today. Right. And to be able to allow that to help someone, that's. I. I feel like that's the most important job we could have as, As a human to human, you know, like, we're. We're all neighbors. We're all brothers and sisters. We're all. We're all humans. And what's more important than uplifting the next person? Right? Like, of course you have to care about yourself, of course. But. But what's more important than then extending that to the next person? I personally, that's the part that took me a long time to find out. Right?
[13:28] Valerie: Yeah.
[13:30] Tom: It almost feels like before I always needed an answer to every single thing. Like, why should I, Why should I help you? Why should I care about you? I have a thousand problems on my plate right now. Why should I help you? Right? But that's again, going back to purpose, right? Purpose allows you. If your purpose is to help people. And I think purpose doesn't have to be a paragraph long. It could also be three words is I'm going to help. Right? And some people help animals, some people help humans, some people help whatever. Right? The thing is, if it's that simple, there's nothing you can do in life that's wrong. There's no mistake. Every mistake you make is just a lesson. And that's. It's a. It's a cliche thing to say, but that's why it's so true. Because the. I feel like when you talk to successful people, even like the most richest people that you may or may not agree with or like, but when you talk to them, it's like, well, what made you rich? Most of the time they say, why solve people's problems? Right. And I, I think that says a lot.
[14:45] Valerie: Yeah. And it's, you know, this whole solve people's problems, it's kind of like the essence of business, and yet it's quite elusive. Right. And I think it's actually quite elusive for the people sometimes that are purpose driven because, like, it is, we get very caught up in, like, what problem are we supposed to be solving? But I would like, if you are willing to, because, like, this was such a, A big part of your story, is that you told the story of your friend Cherry.
[15:17] Tom: Yes.
[15:18] Valerie: In the book. And actually, what I want to ask, because this is kind of like a spiritual moment for you, is, you know, I think at that rate, you were probably not quite in tune to the I want to help people. Yeah, no, right.
[15:34] Tom: I was not.
[15:37] Valerie: And so what were the circumstances around, like, tell the story, but also, like, what were the circumstances around your, the way of thinking that led you kind of to almost that, like, crisis moment?
[15:50] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm gonna move even a little bit further back just to give context. Right. I'm someone that grew up with my deck of cards, right. And in poker, you know, you just have your hand, Right? I have my hand. And my hand, in my opinion, wasn't great. Right. It's. I faced, you know, immigration issues, I faced financial issues, I faced issue with who I was. Right. So in the, in the essence of dealing with it, I preferred escape and I preferred being very defensive of myself. Right. So with escape, it was, I focused on partying. I focused on, you know, just having a few hours of not thinking about my troubles. Right. And I did that for a long time. A lot longer than I wish not, I wish I don't regret it, but just longer than it should have been. And then when I finally found my first salvation, it was not the defining salvation moment. It was simply that I wanted to get serious and do business. Right. So I thought I had momentum. I had thought, wow, like, I figured it out. I went through this marketing internship where I really, really busted my ***. Like, I, I, I lived in Ontario at the time. I drove to LA every single day. And not just driving to LA every single day. It was for an unpaid internship at a marketing agency, very well recognized marketing agency. So I'm, I'm proud of that. Right. But every day I was going, I was losing money. You know, it's, it's like $20 to get there and pay for parking or it's $20 to take the metro link and get out there. And alongside of all the things that could happen during that trip, right? I did that for so long. I got out of the internship and I was ready to, to just go a thousand miles per hour. And I did. And I found success. I got to the point where I was. I told my parents, I'm going to pay your rent for you. I told myself, I'm going to save so much money that I'm going to change my life. And for about six months I did do that. I got to that point and I also did everything I could to do everything on my own and to. When I, When I talk about clients, I'm talking about marketing clients that hired me to help them with anything they need for digital marketing. So I was doing graphic design, I was doing everything. I. A thousand miles per hour was too fast for me. And in six months, my body physically didn't hold up. And all of those promises that I made, all of those decisions I made, which I thought was rational, but it was very irrational, crashed on me. I imagine being in a situation where not only can you not pay your rent, but you can't pay your parents rent, right? Imagine being the Asian kid who wants to be a good son, but you couldn't, you failed. And the thought of just how anyone would look at me crushed me, right? It was the ultimate mistake. So in panic mode, I started destroying my credit, right? I was maxing out my cards, I was taking out loans. And that can only last you for so long. You know, you're. If you're not, if you're not at least balancing out that, that income, you're, you know, it's only sustainable until the banks start telling you no. So when it hit that, at that moment I had my, I think it was like my sixth rejection for the loan. I was, I, I was talking, I went out to the bank, I mean, not the bank, the, the loan officers office. And it was a no. And rent was due in a few days. I was already behind on my own rent and I was just in the car and yeah, I, I couldn't, I didn't know what to do. You know, I broke down, didn't know what to do was so defeating. Um, I've had moments similar before where I only had $9 in my pocket. Hated it, right? But this was **** like, I thought I did it, I thought I made it, but I didn't. I feel even harder. So, you know, at that moment I got this call and It's a life changing call. So it was my friend Cherry. My friend Cherry, we went to college together. College at this point was about, let me see, like six ears removed, you know, So I haven't seen Cherry in so long. She moved out to New York. But when we were in college, we naturally became friends. I don't even know how we became friends. It just felt like, wow, I'm lucky to know this person, you know, I've always felt that way. But I guess that's why when she called and she was like, hey, I'm in, I have a layover. It's not even like, oh, like I moved back to California with it. No, it's like, hey, I have a layover, I'm here for a day and let's meet up. At the moment I'm, you know, at the car, I was like, yeah, I, I, I need this. So we go to Pasadena, we go eat. And she's just talking about all the ways God has blessed her. She, Right before she moved out to New York, I, I had a, I had a few moments where I felt disconnected from her because she always talked about God. And I'm someone that believes in science at that point. To me it's, well, none of that makes sense. Who wrote the Bible? Who, who decides this and that? And none of it made sense. Plus, my family's Buddhist, right? So I just felt like, I don't know about that, right? But as she's talking to me, she was just talking about her blessings. You know, she worked for the NBA All Star Game as a makeup artist. She worked for Imani. She was on a couple studios that she could, we could only, like, dream of as college students, right? We were like, one day we'll do this, we'll do this. She's doing that stuff. She's on flights, getting free upgrades and visiting different countries, which is my personal goal, you know, so hearing all that, I, you know, I was so happy for her. But I also, you know, you think about where I just was earlier that day, very, very down on myself, right? And during that day, she, you know, she started talking to me about God and she actually said, you know, Tom, God wanted me to talk to you. And I don't know why, but at that moment, I believed her. It was weird, but I believed her. Right? And she, she started talking to me about God and she said, you know, God has been watching you behind closed doors. And God, God feels sad. You know, he's seen, he's seeing you trying really hard, you know, and I Was trying really hard. No, no one knows about this. She shouldn't have known about that. Right. She knew that I. I was writing about these things to myself. She talked about letters to myself, which is insane, because if you guys read my book, I added some of the letters to myself on the book just because of how almost ridiculous it was that she brought that up. Right. But these are real letters that I wrote. And through that conversation, she talked about giving God a chance. And I. Val, I. I tried so hard in my pessimistic mind to find holes, and I just. I couldn't wait to be like, oh, I got you that now. I know it's not real. That was honestly how defensive I was as a person. I needed. I needed things to make sense. I needed the answers. Right? But there wasn't. That never came. And in that conversation, you know, it's heavy to think about right now, but at that moment, it was peaceful. It was like someone. Someone heard you and. I don't know. Val, have you ever had that feeling when, like, you just kind of feel like someone finally understands you and knows and, you know, you. You kind of feel like, you know, like I. Everything. Someone understands me. Yeah. You know, I felt that probably for the first time and to today. It makes me. It makes me almost. Almost like, defensive to talk about this because it feels like maybe people won't. Won't believe me. You know, it feels so profound. But the only thing I could do is speak my truth, you know? And the truth was sitting through that day. Cherry asked me to pray, to hold her hand and pray. And during the prayer, she asked God to keep watching over me, but also to give me a chance to accept him. Right. And so there was. There was something she said. She said, within the next seven days, if you want to accept God, you just pray. And I ultimately accepted. You know, I don't know if you. You could relate to how maybe your family. Is your family Buddhist? Or are they. Are they religious at all?
[27:25] Valerie: They're Buddhists, but I.
[27:28] Tom: We're.
[27:28] Valerie: We're all kind of agnostic.
[27:30] Tom: Oh, okay.
[27:31] Valerie: Somewhat. But I got you.
[27:32] Tom: Gotcha.
[27:33] Valerie: I can tell you a little bit about that in a second. I want you to finish yourself.
[27:36] Tom: Okay. Okay. Well, I. I felt torn. Right. It almost. I didn't want to betray my religion. I didn't. I don't know. Like, I. I grew up believing in that. Buddhists. My family always has a statue of Guanxing Pusa, and, you know, she's almost like the. The Mary figure in the Buddhist world, you Know, a motherly figure. I didn't want to betray them. You know, I. I was very torn. So between that day and the seventh day, I. I almost rejected the idea. I wanted to receive it, but I almost was also naturally rejecting it. But the day came, and I knew that I had to pray. I just. I had to, you know, so I did it. Praying was not easy. It was in the morning, probably like three, four in the morning. I just did it. And, you know, I didn't know how to pray. I remembered what Cherry said. I remembered her telling me to just accept. But that's all I knew, you know, so in the first few seconds, I felt stupid, you know, like, here I am in the middle of the room, you know, on my knees, like, what am I doing? Right. But it was also powerful because it was me giving up my insecurities, you know, giving up who I thought I was. And I. I accepted it. I prayed and I. I. In my prayer, I said, you know, God, I don't know how to accept yout hand, but I know you reached out, and I want to accept it. And I pray for guidance. And this is. To this day in my prayer, I tell God, you know, thank you for another day. Thank you for place to eat. I'm sorry. Place to sleep, food to eat, people of love, for hope, and for opportunities for you to have a plan for me and your guidance. I've never asked God for a million dollars. I've never asked God for things. I ask God for guidance. I've always have since that day till now. And, you know, God always comes through. You know, since that day, he's always come through. Everything I asked for, everything I had hoped in my life, from finding my wife to gain a job, to buying a house, to traveling, all of these things he's provided. It's so profound to think that this all started from that one phone call by charity.
[30:54] Valerie: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that, Tom. It's. I totally understand the, like, almost like the defensiveness. Right. But what I actually, you know, what I fundamental believe is that none of us can really dictate or define another person's connection to divine source. It's actually very personal, right?
[31:27] Tom: It is, yeah.
[31:28] Valerie: It's very personal. My experience of spirituality may be entirely different.
[31:35] Tom: Sure.
[31:36] Valerie: But I think also that there are connecting threads, and some of these threads are surrender. I'm going to get into this because this is a word that you use specifically in your book. Obedience.
[31:54] Tom: Yes.
[31:56] Valerie: And gratitude. Three very, like, fundamental mind states, actually, that allow us to Connect with divine source. So I come, even though I was brought up in a Buddhist system, we were not religious, so it wasn't a source of worship. It was actually, and we were not obligated to practice. However, it was kind of just like the background philosophy and identity. And so I never felt like I would ever betray that because it was not something that was to be betrayed, it was just there. I've been to Bible school as a kid because my babysitter is Christian. And then like, I kind of just got exposed to all sorts of different religions. So I ended up being very agnostic for a while and very questioning. Ultimately I went through severe depression and the way that I asked for help was I put myself in a 10 day silent meditation and that happened to be a Buddhist retreat.
[33:02] Tom: Really?
[33:02] Valerie: Yes, it was a system of meditation called Vipassana and it was practiced by the Buddha. It was, and it, it essentially, it really is very practical. At the end of the day, it was sitting in silence, no interaction, scanning your body over and over and over again 10 hours a day.
[33:23] Tom: Wow. 10 hours.
[33:25] Valerie: Yeah.
[33:26] Tom: Wow.
[33:28] Valerie: Ultimately that, that did lead me to become closer to understanding Buddhism and like my default, I guess, religion. But then it led me to the Vedic sciences.
[33:43] Tom: Okay.
[33:43] Valerie: That's why I study Ayurveda and now I'm a holistic health practitioner. So. But Ayurveda is a highly spiritual medicine because of where it comes from. And so there's a lot of talk about this divine connection, divine source. And you know, it's not explicitly said, but it's like your connection to God. And you know, I think what's lovely about Ayurveda and the Vedic sciences is that is left up somewhat for your own experience and interpretation.
[34:17] Tom: So can I ask, do you feel like you need to fully understand to, to accept it?
[34:30] Valerie: No, because I think what ultimately the life journey is, is the discovery. Yeah.
[34:42] Tom: So I think that's why it's, it's more powerful for you because you're in a state where you don't have to know why, you don't have to, you don't need an answer for every, every reason for you to be in it. Right. You, you just, you know that that's what, that's what is, is resonating and even inspiring to you physically and internally. You know, I, I, I are very religious and they, they have to search for answers for everything. And you know what? Not that it's a bad thing, but I also find a pattern where it seems like they get more lost. It's like A maze where you, it's almost like you research so much into the path, this path, specific path that you want to take in the maze, but it's a maze, so you still end up getting lost, and you're, you're just that much more angry because that wasn't the way out, you know, of the maze. That's kind of how I'm. I'm interpreting and also understanding what you're saying and also kind of connecting it back to what I was saying.
[36:17] Valerie: Yeah. And I think that's a really eloquent way to put it. It's, you know, it's not about really deciding. Right. Deciding means that you actually have to take out, like, you have to ascertain certain things as false. It's not that. It's. It's just a commitment to the discovery, like I said.
[36:39] Tom: Yeah.
[36:40] Valerie: And that's, that's actually faith, Right. It's like you don't know. You don't know the truth. You don't know it's going to happen, but you are, you are actually committing to your highest self and the highest good.
[36:55] Tom: Yeah.
[36:56] Valerie: Right. And that's guiding your choices in good faith. That that's ultimately what will lead you to wherever it is that you need to be.
[37:07] Tom: I actually, there was a moment when I was praying to God, right? And at that point in time, it was maybe for like only a day or two, I really wanted to understand. Well, I believed in science so much, right? Like, God guided me to just kind of understand, you know, am I supposed to know I was wrong to believe in science? Right. It's just this random, like, conflict in my head, right? But I, but it also, I recognize that it bothered me so I, I prayed to just understand, right? And throughout the next two days, I, I just came across so much content about how we don't know anything of what's deep in the ocean, right? We don't know anything. We, we don't know if there's giant animal, sea creatures that still exist in our own planet, and we don't know if there's aliens in outer space, right? There's so many people that believe that there's already aliens on Earth while there's other people that don't believe in aliens at all. We don't know everything. So that what that says is science doesn't know everything either, right? So if, if I was so certain in science, then can I explain. Can I explain, like, everything in science? Can I explain what exists, what doesn't exist? How time parallels work? Right? Like, I, I Can't explain any of that. So what that taught me, that small experience taught me was, well, isn't that the same thing as what I'm doing in my walk with God? But in my walk with God, I'm choosing to believe in his. His plan for me and that I could put him in any situation and that will be my purpose.
[39:15] Valerie: Yeah.
[39:16] Tom: So, you know, I always think about that when I hear people questioning whether it's religion or anything.
[39:26] Valerie: Yeah. Well, if you think about the true pursuit of science. Right. Science is also the pursuit of truth in a different way. In its purest form, it is always to be in the discovery of the truth. But, you know, it's human nature to be impatient. And so that's true. That's why religion and science and every single, every other thing, when our ego gets in the way and we get impatient and we want to declare, like, this is the truth. I've already arrived there. That's where we run into problems. Yeah, right. Whether it's for ourselves or for other people, when we declare like, this is it, I don't want to go any farther than this. Then you block yourself from the process of discovery and ultimately that connection to, to truth, to God, to whatever it might be.
[40:19] Tom: Yes, I agree with that. Yeah.
[40:22] Valerie: Yeah.
[40:22] Tom: Do you, do you believe? Because another part of what I wanted to make a point in my book was, was in mindset. You know, Val, I'm sure you've went through your own set of trials and tribulations in your life. What was your mindset during the worst of them?
[40:50] Valerie: Yeah, my mindset during the worst of it. You know, I've had so many rock bottom points.
[40:58] Tom: Yeah.
[40:59] Valerie: And I, you know, I've actually written it. I've written an entire chapter. I was telling. I'm. I'm writing a part of a book. And then I go back and I remembered, oh, there was a point before that even. I remember because I was at NYU for grad school and I was staying part time up on the upper, like west. Not west. It was like. Are you familiar with New York?
[41:23] Tom: Not really. I always wanted to go.
[41:27] Valerie: Oh, yeah. I was staying up in Washington Heights part time, and I had this little room in this tiny apartment and I was. There was a day where I just kind of like, psychologically was done and I, I was screaming at the top of my lungs. I was by myself. I, I, like, people might have heard me, I don't know, but I was like, it was just like I, I just screamed for a good 10 to 15 minutes and no one came to health. And I just felt so lost and alone and just hopeless even, like. And I don't. It's really interesting looking back at it because I was screaming, not because I was in danger. I wasn't, I wasn't broke even. I was just like in over my head. I was, I was in grad school in a program where I, I morally disagreed with what they were teaching me. I was stuck. I was studying until like mid hours of the morning and trying to make my life work and trying to somehow still be happy and all of that. And I just didn't see how life could work. You know, that was the start of a very, very long journey, like of, of self discovery and kind of like starting to really peel back layers of self hate, layers of, of conditioning, layers of everything that I was taught about the world that I realized was no longer true or it wasn't true to begin with.
[43:14] Tom: And that's so brave of you to do. Right. Because in order for you to, to, to get, to overcome it. Right. You had to make a decision to try and strip that away. Right. You, you chose to understand it, you chose to approach it and you chose to find a solution.
[43:38] Valerie: Yeah. And to commit. And that commitment has taken me. This was like, this was like 12 years ago.
[43:48] Tom: Wow.
[43:49] Valerie: Right?
[43:49] Tom: Congratulations.
[43:51] Valerie: Yeah.
[43:52] Tom: Yeah. You know, you know, it's. It's one of those things where I am, I'm gonna guess, but before you screened that day, your mindset was probably. You were that your situation, you were under that pressure and that pressure defined you. You, you were the culmination of everything that you liked and didn't like. But you know, it takes a bit of. I, I don't want to put it in a. I don't want to say delusion in a way that's bad. I want to say delusion in a way where it's. There's a delusion that you need to be like, you know what? I'm better. I'm gonna overcome. You have to have the delusion in order for that point to be a reality, or else you're always gonna stay matching the energy of your situation.
[44:58] Valerie: Yeah.
[44:59] Tom: In your mind and in your soul. You know, you have to make the decision to be above it. And I wish a lot more people could understand that. You know, I have people very close to me that will always prevent themselves from having that delusion because they think that's silly. I personally think it's. It's not only not silly, but it's the most important thing. You need to have in this life, I'm. Unfortunately, delusion is, seems like a negative word.
[45:37] Valerie: Yeah.
[45:37] Tom: But to me it's not. To me, delusion is this imagination of your potential.
[45:44] Valerie: Yeah.
[45:45] Tom: And here's the example I really want to give. Think about a door to door salesman. Right. And I, I think maybe you read this in the book, but a door to a salesman, either could be this just so annoying, like, oh my gosh, just shut up. I'm gonna hang up. I'm gonna close the door on you. Right. I don't have time for you. But it could also be a person that's trying to feed his family. Right. And if you have the delusion to be like, I'm gonna be a good person. And that takes effort, by the way. Right. Like it's way easier to be negative than positive. Positively takes work. So if you have the delusion of my. I'm going to be someone that uplifts others and I'm going to be someone that is not negative. That interaction of you actually talking to him and just treating him like a person, imagine what that does for him. You could be another closed door and shut him out and that might, you know, how do you know that might not be the moment where he, he decides, I can't take this job anymore. Or maybe you give him hope. Right? Hey, this job's not that bad. Right. That decision, it's about how you project yourself. It's about being present, having your mind above your problems, having the delusion to be above your situation.
[47:22] Valerie: I'm going to add to this as well because I think really in the past 12 to 13 years after that moment, it was really governed by this ultimate decision that I'm not going to be part of the problem and I'm going to be part of the solution. Whatever that takes, I'm gonna do that. And whatever suffering that comes with that, I'm going to also take. And that's a, you know, like, I, I can't, it's funny because I, like, I can't imagine living life another way. Even though it's, it's given me a very, very particular set of life circumstances. Like, I don't think I could have done it another way. And that is where the obedience part comes in.
[48:17] Tom: Yes.
[48:17] Valerie: Because if there's something that I like, you know, I, I was, I've always been one of those people. Like, I don't necessarily believe in God, but I do believe in a higher power in some, some way, shape or form. But yeah, but there was a decision that was made that I am going to do this. And I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I have always been obedient to that mission. And I. I don't even. Like, I can't imagine. I can't imagine a way of being that is otherwise. So, you know what.
[48:50] Tom: What's your definition of obedience? If you could put it into two sentences.
[48:56] Valerie: Yeah. And this is a very specific type of obedience.
[49:00] Tom: Sure.
[49:01] Valerie: It's like you follow your convictions.
[49:05] Tom: Okay.
[49:06] Valerie: Yeah. The convictions are based on your values. Right. Your values of how to treat people, how the world should relate. Right. Your. Your vision of. I have a vision of a harmonious planet. So I have a vision, like, of people treating each other with respect and dignity and that including myself in that vision. Right, yeah. That everyone can thrive. That's a vision.
[49:35] Tom: Yes.
[49:35] Valerie: So I have certain convictions around that mission. Like, I believe that is our birthright, and so I am obedient to that mission.
[49:45] Tom: So you're obedient to. To your own better being. Right. Like, you're. You're your. How do I say this? It's like you have to be keeping yourself in check with you, making sure that that mission is. Is what you're working towards.
[50:07] Valerie: And that's purpose. Yeah, Ultimately, that's purpose. And then.
[50:11] Tom: Yes.
[50:12] Valerie: You know, I. I emailed you earlier on about the book and how you talked about obedience. And like, it is in. In the vedic sciences, there's this concept called dharma, which is. Which is your. Actually, it's obligation, duty, and also purpose. Right.
[50:31] Tom: Okay.
[50:31] Valerie: Roughly translated from Sanskrit, that's what it is.
[50:34] Tom: Interesting.
[50:35] Valerie: Okay. It's your divine, like, kind of like the divine purpose of your life that you are meant to actually obey in that way. And it's like, are you willing to do that? Are you willing to. To follow the path that your soul is meant to. Yeah.
[50:55] Tom: I always feel like, in specific hard times in my life. Right. I'm always reminded of what you're describing as Dharma. You know, like, for example, my father had a heart attack not that long ago, you know, very challenging time. And, you know, I think about it like this. Right before I met Cherry that moment. Right. It was rock bottom for me. Right. But if you think about it, this heart attack situation is worse than that. Right. It's a potential loss. It's. It's worse. But it wasn't worse, in a sense of. That was my rock bottom. It. It was a situation for me to step up because of who I am now.
[51:48] Valerie: Right.
[51:49] Tom: No matter what would have happened, I had to step up and Be above and be there for. To take care of things. Right. I wrote this list of beliefs I had to unlearn on one of my layers to myself. And in this list, I have it open right now. I wrote, please have to unlearn. If I'm not hustling, I'm failing. Unlearn that my worth is tied to my productivity, unlearned. That I have to do this alone. Rest is earned. Not necessary. If people don't celebrate me, I'm not enough. My circumstances define my mindset. Things have to make sense before I could have faith. I need to feel good before I could do good. That was my list, and I wrote that with the thought of. This is these. This is the list of what will keep me in check. To be. To be someone with a perspective that's above what I'm facing at the moment. Because God forbid. But you don't know what could happen tomorrow. It could. It could be worse. Right. It could be the worst thing you've ever faced in your life. But this list will keep you grounded, so it won't be your rock bottom. So.
[53:18] Valerie: Yeah, I think that's beautiful. It's like keeping the ego in check.
[53:22] Tom: Yes. Yes.
[53:24] Valerie: And we have to constantly do that. Actually, I have. I find myself. I have to constantly do that because, like, it will. You know, life just happens, and then all of a sudden you're chasing, you know, this external vision of success again. You're wondering why things are going crazy. And it is. It's. It's just so good to have these grounding conversations, Tom, because it really reminds me of why I'm here, and it reminds me of my rock bottom. And I think, you know, as painful as that is, it's so important.
[53:58] Tom: Yeah.
[53:58] Valerie: Because there. There's no stronger conviction that will come of my life than from those moments. And.
[54:06] Tom: Can I. Yeah. Can I ask you a quick question?
[54:08] Valerie: Yeah.
[54:09] Tom: What was. What was the moment that made you want to share the healing experience of others? Or do you have one? Or was it like a culmination of things?
[54:27] Valerie: So when I. At first, when I was healing, I was doing for myself. Right. So the meditation was for myself. Going to yoga. I was going to yoga like 5:30 in the morning, six days a week for like a year.
[54:42] Tom: Okay.
[54:43] Valerie: And then finally I was getting better. And only then actually, did I actually discover this whole science of Ayurveda and all of that. That. That wasn't even in my consciousness until then. When I learned what that was, then I finally had structure in a system that I saw could work. And that was when I was like, I want. That's what I want to do. I've always wanted to. Like my undergrad was actually in psychological services. I always kind of had the inkling that I want to be some kind of counselor. I just wasn't ready for it. And I didn't, I didn't really see the framework being one that's helpful. Like, you know, not with offense to like therapy. I think it's important for certain people, but for something that's more holistic and systemic. You know, I didn't see anything existing that, that would work from that standpoint until I discovered what Ayurveda was. So when I. That was like, oh, this is the thing that I've been waiting for that can help a lot of people, including myself. That's when I made the decision. But yeah, sometimes it's like you have to wait until the right thing comes along because, like, again with the ego, it wants to pick the thing that's good enough and it's not actually good enough. You have to keep digging. So Ayurveda allows me to, to have something that works, but also encourages me to keep digging. So I'm not done yet. Right?
[56:19] Tom: Yeah. Yeah, that's a, that's a beautiful thing because it's, again, it's, it's not something that you start off with. It's something that you had to discover. And, you know, that's when I, when the, in the beginning when I said beautiful things come from the darkest places. Like, that's literally. I think your, your story has been an example of that too. You know, like you, you went into these 10 hour meditations. You know, it's isolated, right? You said it was isolated. Yeah, isolated. It's almost like, like a cocoon, you know, spraying its wings finally. Right? It's so, so profound. And you know, to hear your version of how that happened and my version of how that happened, it just shows you that we all walk a very similar type of life. And I feel like we're two people that are blessed to get to the point where we could talk about this in this manner. And even whether it's recorder or not, just have this chance to connect about this. Whereas there's a lot of people that don't have that luxury that are still fighting the battle on their own. And that is why I think the most important job in this life is to spread it. You know, to spread as much as you can. I. Another thing that I'll share now is like, I, you know, we Just found out like we're expecting. Trying to keep on DL right now, but it's one of those things where when I think about this, I think about a conversation I had with one of my good friends, Ramon, and he told me during COVID you know, Tom, I've done so much in my life, walked so many places and on this earth, but the thing that makes the most sense is I have to raise two good people in this world because that has to balance out the bad. For one reason or another. That, that particular quote is in my mind all the time. And it doesn't have to, you know, And I also feel like it doesn't have to be a kid, but it's just the fact that you have a chance to influence someone that could. Domino effect. And how far do you know this domino could keep going? You know, it might keep going for decades. You don't know that. But if you don't have the ability to recognize that you could make that first domino hit the second one, you know, that domino effect might not ever happen.
[59:21] Valerie: It's a really good reminder too, because oftentimes, especially in the world of entrepreneurship or business or helping or anything, it's like sometimes you don't know how far your impact will be. And if you're. If you're really in this to make a difference, like knowing that you've made, even just if you've affected one soul, it's. That's like enough to know that that's worth it, you know? Yeah. So just continuing to be focused on that, on the. The Dharma, on the purpose. Yeah. Is really important.
[59:57] Tom: Yeah.
[59:58] Valerie: Yeah. Well, congratulations again.
[01:00:01] Tom: Or thank you.
[01:00:02] Valerie: Such a. Yeah. For this new discovery chapter. And, you know, life. Life keeps on moving on and developing and it just. I love, I love that. I love that we'll always have something new, something to look forward to and something to discover. Yeah. So let's wrap up the interview. Tom, like, what is one thing that you want to leave people with before we sign off for today?
[01:00:33] Tom: Yeah. I would say when I started writing this book, I was very self conscious about it because my biggest fear for this book was that people would think I was just talking about myself without a purpose behind it. Right. And I didn't want to do that because I don't necessarily think I'm someone special again. I. I'm just the guy you pass by at the supermarket, you know, I'm just that guy. But there is. There is purpose behind my book. There is intention behind my book. My goal has always been that I could show others a perspective that maybe they haven't seen yet, that could help. Right. So if there's someone out there that's, you know, in their ashes right now. Right. Like drowning in bills, burnout, maybe you're questioning everything. Maybe you've been betrayed by your faith or your partner even. Right. I just want them to know what I said about rock bottom is. Your rock bottom is not about how bad it is. It's about whether you're ready to change. And when you are, things will shift. Because your situation might be the worst today, but it might not stop getting worse. That's the reality of things, is it might not stop. But your soul and your mindset, it doesn't have to match it. You could choose present, you could choose perspective. You could choose to be above all the problems by serving something bigger than yourself. So that's what I would like to leave people with, is like, you know, if you could live with, like, an alignment. And when you serve others, even in your pain, life will reward you or not even reward. Life will unfold in ways that you just. You. You won't imagine. And I. I hope that's something that people could look forward to in their life because it is a very precious life that we have.
[01:02:49] Valerie: Thank you, Tom. So Tom's book is called through the Wire. Even through the Fire. Right. And it's not out yet.
[01:02:58] Tom: Yeah. If that sounds familiar, it's a song by Kanye west. When he first came out. One of the very powerful song that I. Right. When I first finished reading this book for the first time, I had that song in my head, so I went with the title.
[01:03:17] Valerie: Yeah. And do you know when. You know when it will be available for others to read?
[01:03:23] Tom: I'm just now learning that the publishing process could take a lot longer than I expected. So, you know, my manuscript is done. You know, you read it, but I think it might take a while for it to actually hit the shelves, but I might have it earlier on Amazon.
[01:03:40] Valerie: Okay.
[01:03:40] Tom: But I do encourage, like, if. If anybody listening and you just maybe want to. Want to talk about this stuff or if. If you're interested in even reading them. This manuscript, like I. Before it goes on sale, I'm. I'm open to just showing parts of it. So, you know, I. I definitely encourage these kind of conversations, especially if you feel like it could help you.
[01:04:07] Valerie: Amazing. Thank you so much, Tom.
[01:04:09] Tom: Thank you. Thank you for having me on. This is very grateful and an honor to be on here.
[01:04:18] Valerie: Thanks for tuning in to from the Ashes. If this episode sparks something in you. I want you to know your evolution matters and we're rooting for you all the way. For coaching, community and resources to help you rise into your full potential. Visit intrepidwellness Life and check out what we have to offer. If you love the episode, please leave a comment, share it with a friend, or tag me on Instagram @intrepidwellness Val because I'd love to hear what resonated for you. Until next time, keep rising.
