[00:00] Valerie: Rise, renew, reconnect. Welcome to from the Ashes, a podcast where bold conversations empower healing and authentic, vibrant living. I'm your host, Valerie Huang Beck, and I'm on a mission to evolve the dialogue that moves humanity harmoniously forward.
[00:17] Michael: And the fire in the darkest night of Phoenix burns. It's ready for flight. Shadows may come try to tear you apart, but you're the flame that ignites.
[00:30] Valerie: All right, everyone, welcome back to from the Ashes. I have Michael Green here for the third time, and really happy to have you back, actually, because I don't know why, but people really love when you come on to the podcast.
[00:46] Michael: I don't know why either. I mean, I. I can't in my wildest dreams imagine why. That's great to hear, so thank you.
[00:53] Valerie: Yeah. Well, maybe they are just. They really love you, so that's great. But, yeah, we're just gonna. This is a nice yearly tradition.
[01:02] Michael: I like it.
[01:03] Valerie: Yeah. It's turning into a tradition. And we don't really talk between. So each time we do these, it's kind of also a good chance to catch up.
[01:13] Michael: Well, yeah. I also feel like it's like we were both students, like, you and I are just, like, always voraciously absorbing information. And like, a conversation from one year ago is. I wouldn't say dated, but it's more. It's like every conversation, like, adds on top of the other. And because we. We just both learned so much, that one year ago feels like ancient history.
[01:36] Valerie: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not even the same country as last year.
[01:40] Michael: Yeah, I'm not even the same person. I'm in the same country. My. The wife of the Balinese owner of the villa just left me whole plate of fruit.
[01:51] Valerie: Amazing. What's on the plate?
[01:52] Michael: It looks like there's a mango and an apple, but it's a little bit far away. I'll have to get confirmation on that. Maybe at the end. It would be the big reveal at the end of the interview.
[02:03] Valerie: What fruit does he have? I. I'll just toss things out there, since every year is very different for us. We can riff on swadhyaya, which is self study.
[02:13] Michael: Mm.
[02:15] Valerie: Is it the three kriyas? Swadhyaya is one of them speaking yoga now. So it's tapasva ishvari pranathana, which is discipline or friction and self study and surrender. So. Which I think all of those are so relevant to what we talk about all the time.
[02:41] Michael: Totally. And I'm. I don't speak yoga. Yeah, it's. I've never really been literate, but every time I talk to you, I always learn so many useful things. So I'm happy to just listen and then we can just free jazz from there.
[02:56] Valerie: Yeah.
[02:57] Michael: You said self study, surrender and discipline.
[03:01] Valerie: Yes.
[03:02] Michael: Yeah, yeah.
[03:02] Valerie: And I'm, I'm translating it through my lens of things. And I do love throwing yoga terms at you because I know that you'll have something to say that is revelatory even though you haven't studied yoga yourself. I just feel like we're kind of connected in this path, so I like to throw them at you. The idea of self study as being on the path to equanimous way of being as a way to, yeah. Gain that inner peace. And also now I'm realizing too, I run or operate in the world looking at myself and my patterns, and it gives me a little bit more of the ability to respond without the reaction, without the emotional attachment to whatever it is is happening. So I guess I'll just, you know, I'll give you a quick rundown of what's been happening with me since we last spoke, please. And then I'll. I'll let you riff as well. I moved to Japan in October and I knew, obviously I knew this was going to be a huge dynamic shift because it's a different country, different way of being, different mindset, different language. And so I was already prepared. But I also knew that the last time I was here living was like 13 years ago. And when I left Japan, I was a more emotional wreck than I realized. I was very reactive. I was. You know, Japan has this saying that the, the nail that sticks out gets hammered down, which means that, you know, it's not good to be different, it's not good to stand out. And as a foreigner, as someone who almost blends in, but not quite, who has to kind of navigate the middle, because I'm not, I'm not obviously them sometimes it's. It can be very, very. It was very, very difficult at times because I felt the pressure of those standards, I felt the pressure of those expectations. And I have done so much work since then and experienced so much now that I have more of the svasta of being settled in the self, more of the self esteem coming back to Japan. So observing myself in similar situations as 13 years ago, where I probably would have felt a lot worse, I felt. Would have felt a lot anxious. I can navigate things with much more ease. And yeah, so I've been looking at that and being like, huh? I've really, I really have gotten to Know myself a lot more. It's not, it's not in my imagination. And sometimes like the grasping the concept of like Svastha, right. Like being settled in the self, which is perfect health and Ayurveda and the concept of self study, like what does that actually mean and why does that benefit me? I'm starting to understand that in order to overcome transmute negative self talk, I think this is a really big step towards that. So that's how, what I've been observing in myself recently.
[06:25] Michael: Well, let me ask you a question.
[06:27] Valerie: Sure.
[06:28] Michael: Can you really be a practitioner of any sort of discipline if you are not sort of practicing on yourself or, I mean, obviously if you're a neurosurgeon, you're not gonna operate on yourself. But if you are, and I say this is. I'm also a meditation teacher, right? So like I couldn't, I mean in, in my right mind teach meditation without practicing meditation. It just, it's inconceivable to me. So do you think that given what you do, isn't it sort of like the only path of integrity, integrity to take is to be in that constant state of self referral and self reflection because not only for your own benefit, but also for the benefit of others? Right. I mean I, I say this all the time and I'm kind of like a broken record, but like any sort of practice that we do, Ayurveda meditation, getting a massage or whatever, it's, at the end of the day, it's, of course it's, it's useful to us, but it's also the healthier that we are, the more integrated we are, the more of service we can be, the more full our cup is to give from. Right. So it's like, it's like I see this in a lot of people where they feel kind of guilty or self indulgent if they take some time for themselves. But I always like say it's like, you know, you, it's really like an act of service to others just as much as it is to yourself. Because everybody benefits from a healthier, happier you, especially your family, your spouse, your coworkers, whatever. So I guess what my question to you is, like in any spiritual path, don't you. Isn't this like, shouldn't or shouldn't this be a given that everybody kind of does this?
[08:23] Valerie: So.
[08:24] Michael: Or am I being really naive?
[08:28] Valerie: So my opinion is that it should be given and my observation, it is, that is not practiced. And this is where I think it gets a little bit hairy because if we look at how, like do you remember learning the overview of different ancient Indian philosophies in order to learn Ayurveda? And there were different schools of thought.
[08:53] Michael: Yeah.
[08:54] Valerie: At the end of the day, these, you know, the system of Ayurvedic medicine is based on philosophy. Right. And actually different schools of thought, of philosophy and so depending on who was practicing Ayurveda and developing it. Because, you know, we have Charaka and we have Sushrut, but there are many lost to the, to the ether. Right? Different schools of thought.
[09:20] Michael: Yeah.
[09:20] Valerie: Of Ayurveda is lost to the ether. And we could say this for any system. Those schools of thought followed their, their philosophies to develop Ayurveda to however it is that they wanted to see it. Right. Or however it fit their life worldview. So there are different ways of understanding reality. Right. Depending on what school of, of thought you follow. And depending on that, what is truth and who can tell you what's true differs. And so Svadyaya is not required, so called, or like an obvious requirement.
[10:04] Michael: This is the self discipline, self practice.
[10:06] Valerie: Yeah, right. In all schools of thought. So there are some schools of thought that I think rely more on, on inference as well as authority. And we could draw parallels to religions of all different types with this. And so in those schools of thought, self study is not as revered than in other schools of thought, which is why you do have certain very, very renowned practitioners still. I think that they might have all of the Shlokas, right. The, the lines of all the texts memorized and all of that. But in terms of seeing themselves, maybe not so much so, but to me, and this is, you know, trying to navigate, well, why am I here? What, what am I here to explore? And why is it so important that I know myself? I had to get down to the bottom of that answer. Because Ayurveda is just one way of knowing self. And but to me, this. So it has become that I am a, maybe a practitioner of knowing self through Ayurveda. Hip hop, whatever else I do, you know, like anything else that I do goes back to a root of this practice as opposed to everything I do goes back to the root of Ayurveda or any other like spiritual practice. Okay. So I don't know, maybe I'll leave it at that for now.
[11:52] Michael: I'll take it. You're like spinning my mind in a thousand different directions. I actually have a pen and paper to write down ideas because I just don't want to forget anything.
[12:01] Valerie: Okay.
[12:02] Michael: I have so Much to say. So if, as you so eloquently revealed to me or pointed out to me last time we spoke, did a podcast, you know, the first sutra of yoga sutras, the first stanza, sloka, you know, yoga is calming the vicissitudes or fluctuations of the mind. Right. And potentially so all of these traditions, Buddhism, yoga, Ayurveda, through prasha, prad, Paranam, as you mentioned, it all goes back to sort of self sadhana or focus or meditation. And what is meditation? In my humble opinion, it's really swastya, getting more settled in the self. Right? So like, when it comes to teachers or practitioners out there, I think we all kind of have this, like, I mean, everybody's different. Like this sort of intuitive compass or spidey sense of like, if a teacher is right for us. But what, like my unconscious is sort of always scanning for is, are those like signs of self practice, you know, because there are some teachers out there who can quote and memorize and chant all the shlokas, and they're so erudite and they know everything, but for some reason it just doesn't lands. It just doesn't come across. And there are some people, like, I saw a teacher here a few weeks ago who was just like, so humble. And basically almost every single question he answered was like, I don't know, you know, And I was like, oh my God, this guy's amazing. He's not like pretending he doesn't know anything. He's not pretending he doesn't know something that he doesn't know.
[13:48] Valerie: Yeah.
[13:49] Michael: And so I. I'm always sort of looking for signs of like that self referral, that self study. And one of the most telltale signs is like, like, are you a good person or not? You know, it's like, are you kind of is your behavior something I would aspire to or emulate? Right? Because like Ayurveda, Buddha, meditation, it's all designed to be taken into the world with you and practice 24 7, you know, through at least putting, intentionally directing your attention, your ethics, your speech, everything, your actions, your work, right. How you treat people. So if there's any sort of like incongruence in a teacher, I sort of at least intuitively will or unconsciously will pick it up. And I know that they're not the right for me, not the right maybe mentor, role model for me because, you know, it's like a job for them or they're. They've just read the text and they're very eloquent or they're you know, they're very skillful with social media or whatever. You know, also a couple things that you said that really got me thinking when you. Especially when you were talking about the six philosophies of Ayurveda and how they would interpret Ayurveda differently is which something, you know, everybody who practices Ayurveda does it in a little bit of a different way. It's like some people, if they're astrologers, they'll go through that route. Or some people, if they're herbalists, they'll use, you know, be heavy on the herbs. And if some people have a massage or detox background, they'll go with the Panchakarma body treatment route. Right. Everybody does it kind of differently, and which is something I talk about a lot. But it is also interesting, I was thinking about how, you know, one of the core tenets or one of the core principles of Ayurveda is bio individuality, where it's like, what works for Valerie may not work for me, and what works for Valerie in California may not work for Valerie in Japan, et cetera, et cetera. Everybody's different. Different ages, different genders, different climates, different seasons. But what's so interesting is, like, it's the bio individuality of the practitioner also, right?
[16:14] Valerie: Yeah.
[16:16] Michael: So, I mean, this is like, so important. It's like I'm going. Michael's going to filter the oyster of me, is going to filter the spirit of Ayurveda much differently than anyone else, just because I'm a different person. Right. So it would make sense that in the philosophies, that not only would the philosophies interpret Ayurveda differently, but the vyas or the practitioners would interpret it differently. And there's really no way around that. And also it's like, you know, so much has been lost to time. You know, Ayurveda's thousands of years old. Nobody really knows where it comes from. But even Charaka, which is like one of the main Ayurvedic Samhita, is the textbook, supposedly there were five other Samhitas that were just lost to time. I think one quarter of one of them survived, but most of it's gone. So what was in that? You know, what did they have to say? Right.
[17:25] Valerie: Yeah.
[17:26] Michael: So it's really mind blowing to think about. And it is also like, the deeper that I get into Ayurveda, the deeper that I sort of like, understand that it's like just the dao or like, kind of the way to flow in the Universe, like with your unique needs and your unique constitution, your dosha, your imbalances, et cetera. It's like. It's just like the way, you know, and this is going to get kind of trippy, but it's like in, you know, in Dzogchen, in Buddhism, Nam Kai Norbu, who's like a really renowned teacher who died in the 80s, he has this little book called Crystal in the Way of the Light. It's this little book on Zogchen. And in it he says that Zogchen, or like this meditation practice which is more or less resting in the pure awareness, he says it's practiced in 13 different star systems that he knows of. So, like, and when I think about Ayurveda and, you know, there's like, whenever I teach, I always close with one quote from Charika where it's like. Like the heat of fire and the liquidity of water. The properties of like increases like. And opposites, balance are nothing but natural manifestations. And human beings didn't create that. I'm butchering the quote, but that's essentially what it says. So you think about that. It's like, okay, like increases, like opposites, balance. That's just the way it is. Heat adds more heat, you know, cold will add more cold. And just like the heat of fire, liquidity of water, it's just the way it is, right? So, like, if. If it's. That's just the way it is and on this planet, it's probably the way it is on everywhere else, you know, and then there was this another thing that really, there's. Do you know who Manly P. Hall is?
[19:31] Valerie: No.
[19:32] Michael: He was like this 20th century sort of mystic, very erudite. His famous book was the Secret Teachings of All Ages. But he wrote this tiny book called Secrets of the Vedas. And it's like a hundred pages. And he had a library in la and I picked it up there. But in it he says, you know, when you trace the lineage of Ayurveda, you know, when it's like Indra Prajapati, the Ashvin twins, and then like Brahma, it gets like. Goes to. It starts going from sages to renowned physicians back up to gods and then like Brahma or something, you know. So it's basically like going from human beings to gods. And then he was correlating like the Aspen twins as two stars in the sky. And so he was making a very compelling case that like, Ayurveda came from, like, you know, another world. And it just totally blew my mind. I don't know how the hell I got started on this. What the hell. How did you. How did you line me up? The point being, what I wanted to make was that, like, Ayurveda in the way that I see it is like. It's just like the dao. It's like the way, you know, it's like the way to flow in this crazy world with our own unique constitution and problems and assets. You know, it's the closest thing that I found that I've discovered. And back to your original question. It's like also through fits and starts and trial and error, my own investigation and practice of Ayurveda and meditation is sort of becoming what I'm teaching. It's becoming less reliant on what I learned in school or what I read in that book and more of just stories from my own life.
[21:35] Valerie: Yeah, I won't. I want to ask you, since you've been in Bali for how long now?
[21:43] Michael: Almost two years.
[21:44] Valerie: Yeah. And since I just arrived here, it's been about five months. So I'm in the midst of this process where I feel like I'm being. Something is untethering. So the idea of self and not self. Right. Things that are. That have been basically your conditioning, what. Your value system, everything. It's from the external. It could be your upbringing, it could be your. The. The culture that you grew up in, it could be in the environment you grow up in. So there are. There are many assumed truths. When we move to a different country or a different place where it's radically. Just something has shifted it. I think it takes some time for us to realize the. The totality of, like, how much can shift and how much it can make us question what are we actually? Who are we actually? Because once we're in this new environment, we have new opportunities, right? We have new ways of being. People perceive success differently. People perceive what's good differently. Like, what's valued in Japan is so different from what's valued in the States. Now that you've been in Bali for almost two years and you've had some time to maybe untether and also integrate, I want to hear, you know, what has changed for you? How do you perceive things differently? What are some per. Like, assumed truths that maybe you discovered or are not actually universal?
[23:20] Michael: I was just talking about this with a friend of mine today because. And this isn't necessarily true across Bali or Indonesia, but he was saying he was. He had an appointment with a guy contractor to come to his house and, you know, 2:00pm and whatever. And my friend's waiting, waiting, waiting and, and finally he text, he texted the guy and he's like, where are you? You know, it's 2:30, you're 30 minutes late. And he says, oh, sorry, my, I don't know, something happened, I had to take my kid somewhere. And the guy's like, well I've been waiting here for you, you know, why don't you at least send me a message, you know. And there was no reply. And then we were just thinking, I was like, you know, in our, in the west, it's like customary, you know, it's like just send a message, you're gonna, whatever. But it's not really the case here, for better or worse, you know, it's just so loosey goosey and like it's just not really tight. You know, if they had trains here, they probably would not run on time, right? But it is fascinating to see like the cultural. You know, I lived in New York for a long time where everything's high and tight and down to the minute and then, you know, if you're two minutes late, it's like in a front, you know, like a little bit **** on the opposite perspective or spectrum. So I'm constantly filtering my reality through being a western, like kind of punctual New Yorker. But I'm also constantly trying to be in a state of self referral knowing that I'm the only guy in the island that is viewing the situation like this maybe. So I also understand it's my own conditioning and being like a fish out of water. It's very good for that, you know, it's very good for the mind to understand that people just do things differently and to not get angry or frustrated or annoyed or. It's like I had like the Balinese, like the, the restaurant staff and everybody. The service is like not very good. And I worked in the service industry for a long time, so I'm very sensitive to it. The service is not good, but they could not be nicer about it. They're the kindest, sweetest, most of them, you know, just amazing. So it's like they just do things differently here. They're just on a different wavelength and expecting them to be conformed to my sort of upbringing or whatever, it's sort of, it's just causing me pain. So one of the categories you mentioned is surrender. And to be able to surrender to not only that I don't know anything or how things should be. Right. It's. God, what was I reading the other day? It's like this book on Tibetan Buddhism. It's really like surrendering any notion of youth, of how you think things should be right in any capacity. And the Tibetans really like to deconstruct things where it's like if you're waiting for a. Then if an ostrich arrives instead of a train, then you go with it, you know, that's what happens. So it's like being in a different world is very good to deconstruct that from myself and understand that many of these little inner Yosemite Sams in me that are just like, oh, that shouldn't be this way. This is not right. It's just like ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It does nobody any good, especially me. So it's been really helpful with that. But that's also like, I'm trying my best to always be in a state of mindfulness meditation and self awareness and enough where I can identify some of these invisible programs, some of this malware kind of running in the background. But I've still got plenty of debugging to do, as we all do. But just being outside of your comfort zone is really useful for that.
[27:45] Valerie: Absolutely.
[27:46] Michael: Have you found some of the similar things?
[27:51] Valerie: Yeah, I am, because it's all so fresh right now. I. I'm working at a cafe. I don't know if I. If you knew that.
[28:00] Michael: No, no, I didn't know that.
[28:01] Valerie: Yeah, I started working at a high end coffee specialty shop. And so the background story to this is that my husband got hired to be the head brewer of a craft brewery in this very interesting development in the middle of Tokyo. It's run by a coffee company, but they obviously don't just do coffee. They were hired to do this project to build essentially what is like the village in an urban center of the future. And so it's a really interesting place. If you ever have the chance to come to Tokyo, I'd love to show you around. But it's. It's in this massive ultra modern building. It's like one floor. It's gigantic, enormous. And there are 12, what they call laboratories where everything is made on site. So the craft brewery, they brew the bear there, they roast the coffee beans there, they mill the flour on site for the bakery, et cetera, et cetera. There's even a library there, which is really cool. But. So he was brought on to be a big part of this project. So when I heard about that and we took this opportunity, I was thinking like, what do, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do when I Get to Japan because that means I can kind of leave behind some of my stuff, like my internal baggage, essentially, like have somewhat of a fresh start. So one of my long term visions actually is to have some kind of like very small scale retreat center in the southern part of Japan. And my vision for this in the future is that there's like these hot springs there or they're in the mountains, you get some really quiet time. People can come and do like a meditation thing for themselves in this place. But since I also love community, I also, and I'm an artist, I also want to have like an attached, like cafe and community center where people can come and do like arts exchange and all of this. Like locals can come in and meet, meet people. And so I had, this was a vision that I had and I've had for a while. So when it came to moving to Tokyo and you know, this, this brewery is part of this gigantic development. There's also a coffee shop inside. And so I was like, why don't I try my hand doing this job and just become a barista, learn how to make coffee, learn how to speak business Japanese and like also insert myself into the community. So there were a lot of like, different reasons why, but essentially what I did is I like put myself in the deep end. And so I started working a couple months ago and I've never had to. This is my first time working in a completely Japanese environment where I wasn't expected to, to speak English. So let's say that. And at the same time, like, you know, I have never worked as a barista. So. And it's in this huge development that's like a big corporate thing. I'm constantly just observing and learning and like watching how people interact, watching how they work. In Japan, it's customary, especially if you're a salaried employee, to work very long hours. And so this whole month, like my husband has been coming home at like close to midnight or so. Yeah, Very, very normal though apparently here. So. Yes. And I've gotten to talk to some of his co workers as well. And so I kind of just, I, you know, they don't know that I'm an ayurvedic practitioner, but I sometimes just casually ask them how they're doing. Just, I'm just like listening, you know. And it's so interesting because some people have had to take time off for like mental health reasons because they're overworked and like all this stuff is going around and I'm just like, they know that this is they don't know this is going to happen. This is, this is part of the culture and yet it's a part of it where like, because it's been that way for so long and they have this like mindset of. It's called gamon. It's like you put up with the difficulty, right? Gamon, you put up with the difficulty, you put up with the hardship for the sake of the greater whole. That's the value of, of in, in a lot of Japanese society. So is it right? Is it wrong? I. Who can say? Right? Like, it's because if you look at this development is absolutely amazing and the. It's beautiful. It's, you know, it works like a well oiled machine. And I'm like, this is really, really cool. But then when you look at it from like a operational perspective or a human resources perspective, it's quite taxing and
[33:05] Michael: it requires that you work long hours. Like your husband.
[33:09] Valerie: No, no. And so that's the thing. As an Ayurvedic practitioner, as, as someone who has this personal practice, I have the commitment to myself to live my life a certain way. So and that's, that's where it gets really interesting is because I'm choosing to be a little bit different. Actually I'm choosing to be a lot different. And it's navigating when I show up to work, how am I and how do I still maintain my well being but, but at the same time be in this cooperate, like cooperative relationship with everyone around me. And I think so far so good I've been, you know, I have to get a little bit better at it so that I don't exhaust myself. But again, like I get to choose and I have chosen to take on like a less, you know, like a, like a more minor role in all of this because I know that my health is my priority. Right. And I also have other priorities outside of this job. Like I am still running my coaching and I'm still doing other stuff. So I mean that has been probably the biggest source of learning for me is seeing and like in real time because like you hear about these stories all the time about how the cultures are different and all of that, but you don't get to really feel it until you put yourself into it.
[34:40] Michael: Oh, I can't imagine what it's like working in an old. Did you speak Japanese at all before you arrived?
[34:46] Valerie: I did because I, I lived for three years about 13 years ago. So it was rusty at first, but they've been really nice about it. They haven't babied me a lot. So, you know, one of the first things I had to learn was how to explain the menu. And they were just like, go do it. Go do it in Japanese. And I realized, you know what? After, like, three times of failing at it really badly, I was like, I could. I could still get by, and people will understand me. I could be forgiving to myself that it's not perfect. And I think that's a huge lesson for, like, that's a big growth indicator for me that I'm different now than I was before, because I think I would have beat myself up for that back then. I've been asking myself, like, what have I been looking for in life that I thought was impossible? Or what have I been doing in life that is not necessarily needed? I'm grappling with those two questions right now.
[35:59] Michael: Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing. I have something somewhat parallel, like, not necessarily about your work, but the, like, what you just phrased as, like, you're grappling with. Essentially, what I heard was that, like, what no longer serves you or what is a sort of limiting belief or anything, that it's just, like, kind of getting a little sick of it, you know, these. These old operating systems, these old worldviews, you know. So before we started recording, I. I showed you my bandages, right? So, like, I just got in this. This. This motorbike accident about eight days ago. It was very scary. And for anybody listening who's driving a motorbike, definitely wear your helmet. Because it probably saved my life. But it was very, like, dramatic. You know, I was like, it wasn't my fault, but someone was turning ahead of me, and they didn't signal appropriately. They didn't give me any time, and I plowed right into them because they stopped abruptly. Abruptly. But it was about 2pm like, last Wednesday. And, you know, I'm on. It was, like, pretty grotesque, you know, it's like I'm on, like, lying in the middle of the street, and I think I'd broken my hip or something, and. And my sunglasses are still on my mask. It's like a mess, you know. You know, it like 10, like, with. In a few minutes, I realized that, okay, I can stand up. It doesn't look like anything terrible is going on, and I'm an hour away, so I've got to drive home. So I'm driving home, and the mind just starts to go. You know, this is like 10 minutes old, and I'm already kind of shaky, you know, trying to shake out the trauma kind of that shivery, you know, when you. You experience a trauma, you kind of shiver. It's like a dog shaking off a attack or something, right? The body's kind of like in trauma mode. But then my mind starts to, like, join the party, right? It's like, well, okay, what if. What, What? You know what happens? Okay, what? You. What if something's broken? You know, you can't walk, you can't work, you know, what if the hospital, blah, blah, blah, blah, what if insurance, blah, blah, blah, blah, what it happens to the mind starts going crazy, right? And when the mind started to go off on it, like, what if, what if, what if that sort of toxic, that feedback loop, you know, I noticed that the pain in my body started to increase. Like, the pain just started to get worse. And I start and I realize. And I'm driving at this point, like, hey, enough. Like, stop it. It's like, you are a meditation teacher. You teach people how to be in the body and put your attention on the body and not the mind. And now is like when rubber meets the road, you know, And I just, like, just let it go. Just like, okay, you know, right now all I can do is drive and feel and be in my body, you know, just cut that cord of the thoughts. None of that stuff I knew to be even remotely true. It was just the mind going, going, going. So I was able to cut that cord and the pain started to relax a little bit. And by the time I got home, I was like, okay, you know what? I'm okay. I'll be all right. And the accident was at 2pm and at 4pm I'm actually teaching my class, which I was going to cancel, but I didn't. I probably should have because I was bleeding all over the place. At the end of the class, I looked down, I'm like, oh, ****. But it was exactly that moment where the mind was the Mara in Buddhism, you know, the mind was just going, going, going. And it was creating this tightness, tightness, tightness. And I could see myself going home and curling in the fetal position and just crying or whatever. And not to say that's not entirely ne. Not necessary, because it is important to process and metabolize these emotions. But it was just great, beautiful fork in a road for me personally, where it's like seeing how pernicious these patterns are. And when a certain event can create a circumstance where these patterns can slip in because you feel like you need them to thrive or survive, but to just be in the body with the feeling and with the pain without all the second arrows or without all the catastrophizing and without all the thoughts, which none of which was true. It was like a turning point in my sort of emotional or mental. Emotional life, you know, because I do it. I practice it a lot, but not in, like, a severe event. You know, I. Luckily, I haven't had many of those recently, so. But it was this moment of disgust where it's like, you know, what are you doing? You're not useful. It's like, let it go. Let it go. Just let it go. Just be. Just be in the body. You're okay. Just feel. And I feel like it's a lot easier to teach something like that verbally, but it's really hard to embody it in a certain situation like that. And I was really proud of myself for, like, not spiraling out of control because it was actually very tempting to do so, as crazy as that sounds. It's almost like that sort of, like spiraling out of control was, like, seductive in a way, which is pretty mind blowing. But thankfully I didn't. And, yeah, I probably should have gone to the clinic and cleaned up my wound, and that's a whole nother story. But at the end of the day, it was like a really valuable, valuable teaching. And I also think. And this is, again, it's like trying to see the value in the lesson and the teaching and almost everything in almost every moment, especially when it's not what you want, not what you expected. And this is also like, the embodiment of the practice. And to also go back to knowing that we don't really know how things should be, even for our own life. We don't really know. We think we know, but I've been wrong many times, not only about other people, but about myself many times. So why would I expect that I'm right now, right? So it's like this weird edge to walk where you have to have trust in yourself, in your own wisdom and guidance. But you also have to admit that I don't know. I really don't know. So it's like the paradox, you know, it's just another paradox. So that's like, what I've really been deeply contemplating this week. And that's, like, top of mind to me. But when you said these, like, Sankaras, these patterns that are just like, you're just. That are not serving you. And we started with kind of the cultural conditioning, but then we kind of moved into the personal and. But the personal is where it's. It's really at. And that's like the true. One of the true, in my mind, meditation practices is to admit, see your Sankaras and your emotional patterns and really be honest with what's serving you and what isn't.
[44:03] Valerie: You know, I would like for you to go a little bit deeper into this idea of the spiraling and self as self indulgent. I think it's really interesting because when we spiral out of control, I think it is true that part of us feels better, but not in the way that we want necessarily, not in the way that would necessarily serve us and not in the way that we truly want. However, part of us gets something out of it, right?
[44:33] Michael: Absolutely. And many great writers and thinkers talk a lot about this. You know, Gabor Mate writes about this. You know, he says, like, illness gives people purpose, right? And so you're caught in a really devious and unconscious bind, because if you remove your illness, whether it's anxiety or something more serious, then you remove your purpose. So unconsciously you're wedded to that imbalance, to that illness without being conscious of it, because it's giving you purpose, which is transcending the illness. But if you actually do it, you remove your purpose, so unconsciously you would rather stay. This is something I've seen in myself over the years, something I see in a lot of clients and people as well. And I don't know if you ever got into Bashar. Did you ever get into Bashar, the channel? He's like this legendary channel. He was around LA for a long time, but he. He called it the positive rewards of negative beliefs. So like any sort of negative belief, it's like, just like I was talking about with the illness giving us purpose. Like, for me, like when I lived in New York, it was like anxiety, had bad anxiety, but I was getting quite a bit out of anxiety, you know, it was very familiar to me. It was actually very comfortable to me. It made me very productive. It made me feel like I was like part of the team because all New Yorkers are anxious and crazy. So I was actually getting a lot out of this thing that I said I wanted to get rid of pot. And that contradiction of removing my purpose if I actually did get rid of anxiety. So with all of these little unconscious patterns going on. So, like in that example, like last week, spiraling, you know, into victim mode. Why do bad things always happen to me? You know, especially when I was doing everything right, obeying the law to traffic, wearing a helmet, I, you know, I say please and thank you, you know, it's like I do everything right and still bad things happen to me. Wah, wah. Go in the victim mode, right? So, you know, I know victim mode very well. It's very comfortable for me, and it's been many years since I lived that way. But it was just. It was very tantalizing and seductive to almost given that the tent lifted up. Come, come back, come back. Bad things happen to you. You just. You don't deserve anything good. You know, it's like all that sort of thing. But ultimately I think it's like, it's all of those mechanisms that I just mentioned kind of at play, but it's also like the comfort and like crawling back into that negative space is like knowing that, okay, you don't even have to try anymore because it's not worth it. You're just gonna get hurt. So you don't have to try. It's okay. Just fail. Come in the com. Like the warm, comfortable, lugubrious, you know, tent of failure, whatever. It's like just crawling here. And so that's seductive in a way. So. So thanks for. You're actually giving me the opportunity to sort of like untangle and unpack this. But once you see, you know, it's like the. In Buddhism, it's like, I see you, Mara. Mara is like the. The tantalizing God trying to get Buddha out of his realization. And so we all have our own individual Maras. So this was my most recent Mara. You know, I see you, Mara. I see what you're doing. And no thanks. No thank you. And it's in the next like 48 hours, it was like I was living in a state of like, astonishment and gratitude that like, I walked away from that and I can go about my day with nothing broken. And I'm. Then I'm just. I mean, I'm just like, astonished that not only was I safe from the accident, but also safe from my mind. Because, you know, it's like, I mean, again, I'm. I feel like I'm a broken record. But like most in the United States, 75, 80% of visits to the ER and the doctor are stress related. Right. Also in Ayurveda, you know, the three main causes of disease, you know, the paranam being centered, as you so eloquently expressed the last time we spoke. Prajna parad. The choices we make and then, you know, misuse of the senses is very. They're all intimately connected with where we put our mind and our attention and the choices we make. It's literally the Root cause of physical and mental health or illness is the skillful direction of the mind.
[49:54] Valerie: Yeah.
[49:54] Michael: And there's just. It's really interesting to read about, but when you actually deploy in your life, we do it all the time, all day. But when it's like a big event and you make a choice, I'm going this way, then it makes incalculable difference and especially compounded over the years. And I'm still have my training wheels on me on at some point. I mean, to some degree. But it really is so much to do with where we direct our focus, our attention, and there's just no way around it. But it's hard to get people to see that because it means so much responsibility. And this scares people because we are so. Talk about cultural traditions, we are so inculcated to believing that, that we need something outside of ourselves to fix us. And this is true. I have to go get my wounds dressed. And it's true to some degree, but the lion's share, the bulk is actually up to us. So it is like a lot of the work I find myself doing lately is like deculting people and deprogramming people from the ideology that you need someone or something or a supplement or an herb or a medication or a practice or yoga training to fix you. It may help, but ultimately the responsibility is up to you. And this scares people. But once you really sit with it, it can be very freeing.
[51:42] Valerie: Absolutely. I'm going to piggyback off of what you just shared because this idea of responsibility, I tell my clients all the time that responsibility is sacred. I'm rereading a book called the Courage to be Disliked. Have you, have I mentioned this book to you?
[51:57] Michael: No, but I love the title.
[51:59] Valerie: Okay. It's originally a Japanese book, but it's, it's written to teach on the philosophy of Adler, the psychologist. And it's written kind of like the Yoga Sutra. Well, not the Yoga Sutra so much as. It's written kind of like the Charaka Samhita, where it's like student and teacher. There's a thought exercise in there. And actually there's a premise in there that to reject trauma, I won't go too deeply into what that part is, but the, the. One of the thought exercises around that is to think on if you have anxiety. Right. So maybe there's this guy, he does. He can't go out of his room because he has anxiety about the world and whatnot. And so in the book they're asking us to flip that and consider he doesn't want to go outside. Therefore, he creates the anxiety. So yesterday night, I was actually pondering this for myself because I have been grappling, especially with. Now that I'm in, I have a different environment. You know, I've been feeling really frustrated with my practice as a coach and as a mentor in some ways that it. You know, it's taking me so long to. And this is all the talk, right? Like, it's taking me so long to build this business. It's not where I want it to be. I don't have as many clients as I want. And. And I keep thinking about, well, why is it that. That I. I can't do this and. Or it's not happening the way that I want it, yada, yada, yada, right? And so I was like, what? Okay, so let's think about it the other way. I don't want to succeed. And so I'm creating whatever it is, this. This rut essentially for myself. So to think about it that way, because I think there is some. There is something to discover, even if I don't know exactly. I can't pinpoint right now exactly why I'm creating it for myself or why I might not want to succeed. There is something in there that I know that I need to explore.
[54:09] Michael: There's another Basharianism that was really. I've been contemplating a lot in the past, like, six months. What he says is that if there is something that we want, whether it's like, professional success or romantic whatever, but in order to get there, we know that we're going to have to change, right? We're gonna have to make some changes in our life, which may be a little scary to us. So unconsciously, we will associate what it is we really want with fear, the fear of change, right? So unconsciously, we will make a choice to stay stuck where we are, because this feels like the lesser of two evils in the, Like, a more safe space. So if what it is that we really want is unconsciously shaded with that fear or loss or, you know, it's like moving or moving cities, moving countries, changing careers, giving off an addiction, whatever it is, then we will choose to stay where we are. So anyone who's listening, if they are, have something they really want, then deeply inquire into, like, the potential negative shadings of that belief of the. Maybe the potential fear of change that will require you to actually get there. And sometimes just seeing and identifying it is enough. Does that make sense?
[55:56] Valerie: Yeah, it. Well, even just flipping the perspective to me allows Me to be curious, because the other way, what would you call that? Like you're defining cause and effect. Whereas if you were to flip it and be like, oh, there's something else that's under there that is worth exploring. Because in these flipping around, there is a question underneath it.
[56:22] Michael: In flipping what? Exactly.
[56:25] Valerie: So like, you know, I don't want to succeed. Which is. So the thing is like when we say that it's of course we want to succeed, so why am I saying that I don't want to succeed? So saying that there is something there where I don't want to succeed. Therefore, therefore I am creating this negative self talk or anxiety, et cetera, et cetera. There's, there's something to be explored under there. Yeah, right. Because you're negating what you perceive as the truth.
[56:54] Michael: Right. That's actually a much more simpler way. It seems. If you just flip it like that, it creates like almost like a more direct route to inquiry. As long as you're honest with yourself.
[57:10] Valerie: Right.
[57:11] Michael: Because that's a whole, whole nother thing. It's amazing. We think we can hide things from ourselves. So weird.
[57:19] Valerie: Oh absolutely. And that's the thing is I have to, you know, in this instance, it's like, where am I lying to myself? Because there's something here that maybe I don't want it, but then if I don't want it, then what do I actually want? And why is it that I've been telling myself that I want this as opposed to this other thing? And that's where the whole culture thing comes in, is it? That culture has been telling me that I want this the entire time. I just didn't realize that that was my conditioning. And am I ever going to be free of that? Right.
[57:50] Michael: So weird. And it, it's like, it's so weird. I mean, everybody knows that they're culturally programmed to some degree, but I don't think people understand and I don't even fully understand the degree to which we all are, you know, not just as Americans, but everybody is. So yeah. What do we as individuals really want? And is it, I mean, it's just. And most people don't know the answer to that. Sometimes I don't because it's also like going back to the. Well, I've been wrong so many times in my life, so what do I know? You know, so yeah, it's just endless contemplation.
[58:46] Valerie: I think we do at a, you know, to a point we get to choose, but the more we're self aware, the more free that choice is. I don't think it's a hundred percent possible to be completely free of culture.
[58:59] Michael: No, I don't think so either.
[59:01] Valerie: Especially if you're given the chance to remove yourself from one and to plant yourself in another. You do get quite a unique opportunity that not all people take, to be honest. But if you actually made the effort to see both side, both perspectives, it can kind of break that open. And I've been trying to see, well, what in both worlds there's, you know, there's many worlds, but in the worlds that I've been in, what makes us still human and what is essential I have. I'm connected with dancers all around the world. And so there's a very interesting, unique way that Japanese hip hop dancers and other street dancers regard their craft as opposed to, let's see, where it originated in New York as opposed to Chicago or where anywhere else. And yet there's, it's a tool for us to exchange. It's an art. And so there's opportunity to exchange. And people exchange all the time. You know, dancers travel to Tokyo to teach and vice versa. And yet when they come in to teach, so the locals are going to grasp the knowledge through their lens. Right. But is there potential also, as the teacher coming in from the, from wherever else, to perhaps offer something that both worlds can connect on, where they can grow together that's different, maybe something that human humanity is missing. So those are the kinds of things that I'm talking about or not talking about, but I'm thinking about now. It's like, how can I, as somebody who traverses worlds, offer something that can bring humanity forward? I think there's a unique opportunity.
[01:00:57] Michael: There is, for sure. For sure. Part of me says that there's like this implicit, let's just stick with dancing. Right. So there's like this implicit love of dance that's shared, you know, if like an American meets a Japanese. Right, but then what I'm hearing from you is like how to go beyond that and make this like new entity as a co creation between these two perspectives. Right. It's like two atoms coming together to form a new molecule or something.
[01:01:37] Valerie: Yeah, I think there's, you know, up until very recently, the world has become very small, Right. And so nowadays because of social media, everything gets mixed up. That wasn't always the case. And, and so you would have essentialized versions of something going back and forth. You know, we're getting these Japanese dancers to perform for us next week and you just review it as that. And there's not too much, much exchange. There's like, there's extraction. You could take their technique, their image. They take our image, you know, our technique. But it's, it's surface level understanding. Now that the world is getting smaller, I think we're actually being called upon to interact with each other differently. And it's forcing us to maybe finally reckon with that we all are human too, and that we aren't so separate. But in that we do need to also open up to the fact that we are different. And sometimes these can clash and create conflict. Right, yeah, sorry, those are a lot of jumbled thoughts all over the place. But like, my, my, my, you know, I, I think like I see that, you know, because the world is changing because it's smaller, we are being called upon for more harmonious coexistence. How do we do that moving forward with, with this opportunity that we have.
[01:03:08] Michael: So. Yeah, yeah, well, it's certainly needed. I mean, it's like, you know, the social media and Internet, which was like, everybody was so idealistic about to bridge cultures and bridge people together. At some point it was hijacked to become this like toxic, you know, trolling, like a gotcha thing, you know, where it's like everybody's turning to dunk on each other and it's really not so much about bridging worlds anymore and it was just kind of hijacked. So I feel like the more intentionality that returns to fostering communities on that not only in the 3D space but online. It's, it's, it's just needs to get back to homeostasis. We're so out of balance now. I mean, it's so insane. I mean people are just insane. I mean, literally, it's just so crazy. It's so inconceivably crazy.
[01:04:05] Valerie: In the future, I actually am planning on doing an episode where I, I talk solo on a couple of Japanese video games. And there's a theme in them where humanity gets so anxious they start to self destruct. And the only way to overcome this is to fight God. This is an overall theme in many Japanese video games.
[01:04:31] Michael: To fight God.
[01:04:33] Valerie: Yes. Yeah. But like you, you were speaking to this anxiety, this heightened, heightened anxiety. I, there's a, you know that you're speaking to this like people are crazy these days, like, and they don't know what to grasp onto. And I, I'm starting to see patterns and you know, I think there are, there are crises of faith, there's crises of and, and all of it. Yeah. And so what's interesting is I think these video games, whoever's writing them has picked up on this long ago and made it into a game. It's just fascinating. But yeah, yeah, we need, we need to go back to homeostasis. I don't, you know, I think the reason why that the ultimate level is fighting God is because they haven't found an answer.
[01:05:24] Michael: Well, I would say that like there's like this equal where there are people who don't know what to grasp onto who are looking for any sort of connection either with human beings or with a higher power. And then there's another class of people who are, who certainly have grasped onto something and they're bringing humanity down with them to make sure that whatever they've grasped onto to prove to everybody that that's the right object to or right philosophy or religion to grasp onto, you know, so they're grasping. Some are grasping on too tightly and destroying things and the planet and, but many people don't know, have anything to grasp onto. So I would say it's like this weird toxic mix of both right now.
[01:06:26] Valerie: Ooh, okay, another yoga lesson coming in. There are the Kleshas. I actually recently reviewed this. The Kleshas are the mental affliction. Have you heard of these?
[01:06:39] Michael: Yeah, they're big in Buddhism as well.
[01:06:41] Valerie: Okay, good. So the, you know, the main one that they say is the root of all of them is Avidya, which roughly translates to ignorance. But I think there are, there are some better definitions of it, but others are like fear of death and misperception, et cetera and so. Oh, and grasping. Right. And so one of the, the codes of conduct and the codes of mindset in yoga is non grasping. Yeah. And so there's either one is fear. Right. And this is, goes back to Doshas as well. And we're grasping on so tight that's kind of like, that's that control. Whereas when we're kind of out there, we don't know what to grasp. So we believe everything that's kind of scattered, that's, that's vata. Right. And we could go deeper into all the layers of that. But fear manifests in all of us and there's a lot of fear everywhere these days.
[01:07:40] Michael: I just finished this little, I was a participant in this little four day meditation retreat in the mountains here. It was a Tibetan retreat and the technique, the meditation technique was Chod C H O D And it's this Buddhist style, Tibetan style meditation practice that says, you know, all happiness and well being comes from serving others and all Dukkha, all suffering comes from grasping onto the notion of the self. So the practices in a sense, and they are varied and they get very esoteric but are focused on severing that grasping at any notion of the self, right? Any sort of self contraction, self clinging, self grasping. And, and it's super interesting because like as you observe yourself, you see how I see, I'll speak in the first person. How many things I'm clinging to even on that retreat that were grasping at the, you know, little individual eye, self happiness, whether it's eating orange, you know, or like getting a second helping at dinner or waking up at a certain time, there's so many things just caused me to self reflect that there I do have this grasping quality and it was really helpful to get me to see that, that we all do it. You know, it's like we all do it to many different degrees. And some people grasp and cling on to ideologies and beliefs and, and also in Buddhism they say there's four kinds of suffering, right? They're suffering of change, you know, like unexpected change. And they say they're suffering on top of suffering. So like if you know, getting kicked when you're down and there's suffering, that clinging to rituals instead of like spiritual practice. But the last one is the suffering. The, the clinging like to that self, you know, that grasping. I don't know, it's a super, super interesting to contemplate because. And, and, and we can just like take this back to the beginning where it's like all self care practice is other care practice, you know, it's like anything that you do on yourself will help others if you do it, you know, with the, especially if you do it with that intention because others benefit. But like once I've come to identify like the self grasping, the self clinging in myself, it helps me see it in others, you know, and it also helps cultivate compassion because I know that feeling very well. And so to see it in others, like, oh, okay, it's hard to get angry at someone, you know, even like last week, you know, it's like the person who didn't put their turn signal on or just stopped abruptly, abruptly. I've done that so many times, you know, oh ****, I missed my turn. And you know, whatever. How could I be angry at someone like that when I've done that before, didn't even enter into my mind, be angry with that person. So it's like once we really deeply contemplate our own blind spots and our own sort of Sankaras and patterns and self grasping, then not only will we become a little bit cleaner and show up in the world, but it helps cultivate that compassion for other people because we see ourselves and others and we know how difficult it is.
[01:11:30] Valerie: I am very much appreciating that because I in all of my self study I'm still very hot headed and I can still be very judgmental and I catch myself now more than before at least seeing when I've gotten angry and frustrated and then understanding why other people did too. And it just, yeah, it does remind me to come with more patience and come with more kindness and yeah. Just to. To remember that we're. Yeah, we're all here. We're all out here trying our best.
[01:12:16] Michael: Indeed. Most people. Most people.
[01:12:22] Valerie: Awesome. Well, thank you Michael for this amazing conversation.
[01:12:26] Michael: Thank you Val. Thanks for having me back. It's hard to believe, you know, this is the third time. It's been almost two years since our first one and unbelievable.
[01:12:36] Valerie: Let's see what happens next year.
[01:12:38] Michael: Yeah. Looking forward to it. From the Ashes.
[01:12:43] Valerie: Thank you for tuning in to from the Ashes. If what we talked about today resonates, if it feels on point with something you've been ruminating on by yourself, that's exactly why I'm here. From the Ashes exists for people who are tired of pretending life is fine and are ready to explore what it takes to truly embrace the road to who they really are. Every conversation is an honest, unfiltered account of someone's real life and the path they're walking toward. A life they actually align with. If you want to explore this further for yourself, come join me in my vibrant Visionary newsletter. It's a by week weekly letter filled with the Reflections podcast updates and what I'm contemplating between episodes. You can find the link in the show notes below. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.
